Losing Faith In The Police?

[Yokel1]

http://www.wiltshiretimes.co.uk/news/8372866.Wiltshire_police_sergeant_faces_sack_over_brutality_allegation/?ref=mr

I know policing is not an easy job, and there are thousands upon thousands of police, so statistically there are always going to be bad apples - especially in the environment they must work, and media coverage is such that isolated incidents are easily mistaken for a general trend.   However, i do feel that there is a collection of different things that, together, don't look very good from the outside:

1) From what I can tell the officer in the attached case was convicted, and suspended on full pay.  On FULL PAY.  Quiet simply if I'd have terated anyone at my work like that there wouldn't be a suspension or an enquiry or whatever - I would simply be sacked immediately.  And probably sued.   But no, if I were an officer, I would be suspended on FULL pay.

2) Police pensions are huge - it is not that unusual for an officer to claim full pension (and do another job) for longer than he worked in the force.  Apparently 20% of police money goes on pensions.  Retirement is about 51 years old.   I don't buy the physical health angle at all - bricklayers, farmers, etc etc all work on because they have to - ironically partly to pay police pensions.

3) I go to Westbury quite a lot.  I can't remember the last time I saw a policeman there.

4) The Hillsborough cover up.  Disgraceful.

5) "http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/guysmith/2010/06/damaging_met_police_mistakes_w.htmlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/guysmith/2010/06/sorry_seems_to_be_the_hardest.html
"A footnote to this is: no police officer will face disciplinary action because they have all retired and one key senior detecitive has died.
"
6) it does seem that even in those very rare cases where complaints against the police are upheld, the officers involved just simply get away with it.  Suspension on full pay until retirement on full pay seems the rule.   And then we might even get an inquiry to the original enquiry because the results of the original inquiry into the original investigation are found the be flawed.

7) Idiots with tasers.

G20 policing.

9)  Innocent people locked up.    for example.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/victoriaderbyshire/2010/01/sean_hodgson.shtml
Mores  to the point, the most recent data I can find is from 2002 - up to 4000 people in prison are locked up for something they didnt do.  Just think, that could be you.  Oh, and by the way, if you are lucky enough to be released and get compensation - the prison service willclaim back a chunk of that compensation to pay for their board and lodgings they provided for you while you were locked up

10) Whether its the uniforms or the training or the attitude (arrogance??) or the fact we only ever seem to see them in cars and vans - I don't know exactly what it is but it does seem that we don't have a policeforce any more.  We have an army.

11) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11174855  Ermm.....one doesnt want to jump to conclusions but this one is a nobrainer.  Am sure they will be suspended on full pay then let off.

Am open to discussion on this of course.  But, as amember of the pubic my trust in the Force is becoming quite undermined.

[cuthbert-murray]

  Sadly Yokel ive already lost my faith in our police force, Lastnight at the full town council we had the police report , It came  across as just figures that  really do not reasure the public whatsoever , they the figures maybe ticking the right boxes for the police and the government , well they certainley are not in the publics eyes.
After the report I asked the police that after speaking to members of shopwatch they are concerned about shopliffting violence and criminal damage , and the fact that the police have not been seen walking through the high street for nearly 10 months , I was assured they would come to see me to discuss the situation , so I pushed it again and said its fine as they say they drive through but the general public want to see them walking the beat through our town thus reducing crime disorder and fear amongst the public using our town centre , I also said that it was now being discussed that the shops are disscusing bringing in their own security as they have no faith in the police where when something happens its rang through then told the officer dealing with the case will be in touch and hence they never hear a thing again.

[hermes2007]

This is hardly evidence (sic) but when I was in the White Horse cafe about an hour ago a beat policeman came along and had what seemed a friendly chat (they were all smiling and laughing) with some of the customers sat outside and seemed to be keeping an eye on the shops. Hardly conclusive I know.

Saw David Tout, Mike who said your council meeting went on till nearly 10:30 last night - sympathy.

[cuthbert-murray]

This is something the police did bring up last night that they had used the cafe as a base  , but do not anymore  , they have obviously had a change of heart over night and Im not surprised , after the police report went It was not an exactly in and out and read the figures for them last night !
In  LIGHT if they have now changed their tatics and have resumed the police presence even better , but simply sitting in a cafe is not really a place I would want to go into to speak to a police officer in full hearing of the say people you get frequenting this establishment.
Walking around the town popping into diferent shops just to make sure everything is ok and mingling with the public is far more effective than sat in one place where not many people are to know you are around , so Hermes I beg to differ with you

[Mike Hawkins]

In reply to Yokel1s' catalogue:

1. Suspended on full pay pending enquiries! NOT once convicted!!. This is normal procedure for any decent employer.

2. Police officers make their own pension contribution the same as the rest of us. Why do you assume they get free pensions. Officers nowadays must complete 30 years service for a pension. Just because your employer is not so generous, don't blame those who have! If you want a better pension, become an MP!

3. I have seen officers on foot patrol in Westbury quite regularly over the past few months. Do not assume that because you have not seen them, they are not there.!!

4. Hillsborough? What has this got to do with Westbury unless you are a certain Unitiary Councillor!!

5. Not always the case!

6. "Rare cases where complaints are upheld".  Allegations are not evidence. I, or anybody,  can allege anything I like about Yokel 1 but this does mean I have evidence. Does this mean that my "allegations" must convict him? Only the Police, it appears, must provide evidence to support their allegations!!!

7. "Idiots with tasers". Those making these crass and unubstanstiated remarks are, no doubt, the same people who called for the Police to be armed with "non lethal" weapons.

8, G20 Policing - Evidence or press alleagtions??? (see 7)

9. "Innocent people locked up" - Not by the Police but by the Courts!!! Ask your MP to re-write the law, but to include the impossible situation that guilty people are released!!!

10. We have the Police Service our elected representative (our MPs') decide upon. WE elect the MPs' - DO NOT blame the Police for the decisions our MPs' make!

11. Not worthy of comment!!

[Mike Hawkins]

This is hardly evidence (sic) but when I was in the White Horse cafe about an hour ago a beat policeman came along and had what seemed a friendly chat (they were all smiling and laughing) with some of the customers sat outside and seemed to be keeping an eye on the shops. Hardly conclusive I know.

Saw David Tout, Mike who said your council meeting went on till nearly 10:30 last night - sympathy.

No need for sympathy. Mike C-M left before 9pm.

[cuthbert-murray]

Indeed Mike Hawkins No sympathy needed on my part , Like yourself I left early due to prior engagements , I would like to state I am one councillor who attends most council meetings unless over the last 3 years I have been on holiday or sick and IN my mind I have not attended 3 meetings in 3 years not a bad record compared with others without mentioning names on here although Im surely tempted too ! there are a few that do not turn up all the time and then turn up just before the 6 months expire when they would get chucked off the council, so my record for attending has to be one of the best .

[Yokel1]

I always thought tasers were a bad idea.

I do think Hillsborough is relevant to Westbury - I think it is relevant to all of us - its called the Police Force not the Police Forces - the law should be applied as one.  It showed rot in the system from the very top.

As per my comment I haven't assumed there are not police on foot on westbury - just I never see them.

Suspended for 2 years on FULL pay.  Would it not be in the interest of the taxpayer for the case to have been brought in two weeks instead?

G20 is evidence.  The police admit they used kettling. Which is a brutal practice that should be made illegal imo.

The comment "do not blame the police for decisions mps make" is an odd one to me - I am sure the police would rather not say they are a bunch of puppets at the mercy of mps.

Two coppers ploughing through two gardens and overturning a car they shouldn't be driving - "not worthy of comment" - COME ON!!!!  They could have killed someone.

Innocent people ARE locked up using falsified, or more often deliberately withheld, evidence from the Police.The judge and jury can only use the evidence they are presented.

I agree, i think people make lots and lots of false allegations against the police, but you only have to look at where they have to be reopened (or found i n themselves to be corrupted) to know full well there must be even more cases where people are wrong-done by the police and get no recompense.   Many of these cases go on for years and years and there seems to be no concentrated effort to reach a conclusion - a cynic would suggest that gives enough slush for any offending officers to retire (on full pension of course) and therefore get let off, or get so far away from the original data the case for the enquiryfalls away.

As for their pensions I - US -WE are the employers of the Police and I am sure if you took a straw poll the vast majority of  us employers wouldn't have them retire at 51 at sit back and put their feet up sitting on fat juicy pensions while the rest of us work our "Offensive word" off to pay for it.

[Old Codger]

I see in the paper that the policeman who injured the woman when convicted staight away lodged an appeal.

[cuthbert-murray]

he looks the sought of bully that says im a policeman who throws his weight around thinking they are the law not a servant of it I hope he loses and has a lovely time inside where the police are treated like royalty by other prisoners lol perhaps he will be treated the same by the prison athourities as he dished out , the man is SCUM

[Yokel1]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/feedarticle/9255928

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jul/24/police-beyond-the-law

[Yokel1]

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/index/resources/research.htm

[Mike Hawkins]

Indeed Mike Hawkins No sympathy needed on my part , Like yourself I left early due to prior engagements , I would like to state I am one councillor who attends most council meetings unless over the last 3 years I have been on holiday or sick and IN my mind I have not attended 3 meetings in 3 years not a bad record compared with others without mentioning names on here although Im surely tempted too ! there are a few that do not turn up all the time and then turn up just before the 6 months expire when they would get chucked off the council, so my record for attending has to be one of the best .

Don't take it personally Mike. I agree I also had to leave at about 9pm for business reasons. AND, I do agree your remarks re. attendance. Your record is as good as mine, and a darned site better than many!!

I must stop cracking "little jokes" if you are going to take them to heart!!!

[Mike Hawkins]

I always thought tasers were a bad idea.

So what solution do you have in incapacitating viloent people??

I do think Hillsborough is relevant to Westbury - I think it is relevant to all of us - its called the Police Force not the Police Forces - the law should be applied as one.  It showed rot in the system from the very top.

Each Police Force (and Police Authority) is independent of each other. Therefore the mistakes made by one police service should not reflect upon another

As per my comment I haven't assumed there are not police on foot on westbury - just I never see them.

My point I believe

Suspended for 2 years on FULL pay.  Would it not be in the interest of the taxpayer for the case to have been brought in two weeks instead?

Could not agree with you more. The maximum this should have taken was one month

G20 is evidence.  The police admit they used kettling. Which is a brutal practice that should be made illegal imo.

This is a problem that appears to only apply to the Metropolitan Police are. However, If evidence is produced to the contrary, I will concede

The comment "do not blame the police for decisions mps make" is an odd one to me - I am sure the police would rather not say they are a bunch of puppets at the mercy of mps.

But they are. Government makes the laws and the various Police Acts which lay down the procedures to be followed.The police are not "quangoes" able to make their own laws, then prosecute, convict and fine people.

Two coppers ploughing through two gardens and overturning a car they shouldn't be driving - "not worthy of comment" - COME ON!!!!  They could have killed someone.

My mistake. I did realise which story you were referring to. Of course, the officers involved are a complete pair of idiots and should be charged - sooner rather than later

Innocent people ARE locked up using falsified, or more often deliberately withheld, evidence from the Police.The judge and jury can only use the evidence they are presented.

In the number of people who are convicted, this is a very small number. Also, many subsequently released are done so on a technicality. They are not always declared "innocent as charged". I also believe the number of people convicted on falsified evidence is extremely low compared to the famous corruption trials of the 1980s'. However, I would never support any evidence that is "selected" to prove a persons guilt, or indeed to criticise a large number of any group of people. I also firmly believe that one innocent person convicted is as wrong as one guilty person released

I agree, i think people make lots and lots of false allegations against the police, but you only have to look at where they have to be reopened (or found i n themselves to be corrupted) to know full well there must be even more cases where people are wrong-done by the police and get no recompense.   Many of these cases go on for years and years and there seems to be no concentrated effort to reach a conclusion - a cynic would suggest that gives enough slush for any offending officers to retire (on full pension of course) and therefore get let off, or get so far away from the original data the case for the enquiryfalls away.

As for their pensions I - US -WE are the employers of the Police and I am sure if you took a straw poll the vast majority of  us employers wouldn't have them retire at 51 at sit back and put their feet up sitting on fat juicy pensions while the rest of us work our "Offensive word" off to pay for it.

Where do you get this figure of 51? It could be as low as 49 (join the Service at 19 and serve 30 years). However, I would suggest that many officers are themselves unhappy at being forced to retire at this age and would rather continue their service.
As regards "fat, juicy" pensions, I think anybody would continue to work and receive full pay!!

[Yokel1]

Lets cut to the chase here - whatever the discussions - we all want a Police force who are seen to be trustworthy, morally sound, and fair.   
I just simply don't feel we have that.
Yet we should.