My disgust at the Government

[charlie finbow]

I am horrified that our Government is going to bolster the troop numbers in Afganistan by (wait for it) 140 troops, just 140.   This and sucessive governments have slashed defense spending over the years and now we are a joke.   Soldiers have to buy their own kit in ebay, the flagship of the fleet would probably be overtaken by the oxford and cambridge rowing crews as we cant afford the fuel and the air force have to fly on a shoestring and a prayer.  Its a bloody disgrace our young men and women are laying their lives on the line but are supported by a Fred Karno government.

[Clevercat]

I am horrified that our Government is going to bolster the troop numbers in Afganistan by (wait for it) 140 troops, just 140.   This and sucessive governments have slashed defense spending over the years and now we are a joke.   Soldiers have to buy their own kit in ebay, the flagship of the fleet would probably be overtaken by the oxford and cambridge rowing crews as we cant afford the fuel and the air force have to fly on a shoestring and a prayer.  Its a bloody disgrace our young men and women are laying their lives on the line but are supported by a Fred Karno government.   

 

[Yokel]

I agree 100% but I also disagree 100% - you arent FORCED to be in the army in this country.

I'm sure the "enemy" is crawling with jealousy at what our forces have.

Slashing defence spending has been in direct response to public pressure.

In fairness, when the election comes round there are enough people that think we shouldnt be there in the first place to lose votes for every penny that gets thrown at it.  SOME soldiers choose to buy their own kit on ebay, in exactly the same way that most police buy different boots to that whichtheyare issued.

Its like this business with the landrovers and the families suing.  Quite frankly, ridiculous.  You join the army you get shot at. 

[hermes2007]

I think you make good points Charlie.
As a country we need to decide why are we fighting in wars other countries like France and Germany are avoiding - are we trying to punch above our weight ? But if we do fight then lets give the troops all the support and equipment they need to do the job and win (if you can win in a country like Afghanistan). I think we also need to rethink what we are buying. There is an old saying that Generals always refight the last war. Do we need Trident and huge aircraft carriers and tanks and planes that were needed for a war in Germany against the Russians when most wars now are vicious low-intensity insurgancies where armoured cars and decent body armour etc. would seem more important. And when we do buy anything for the forces why is it always years late and way, way, over budget.

[LONDONER]

How long were the Russians fighting in the area? something like 15 years and they couldn't beat them with all there troops and armour they gave up and pulled out.

[Yokel]

You cant make an omelette without breaking eggs.

But is it ALWAYS years late and is it ALWAYS way way over budget?   Or is that just the bits you hear about? 

Do we understand the economic and global importance of weaponry such as trident and aircraft carriers?  Is this the sort of kit we'd need for North Korea? - which ultimately is a bigger threat to us as a nation than Afghanistan.

Are we in Afghanistan just to keep our troops active and trained up and churn over the economy? 

 Just how well informed are we? 

From what I can see I cant see the benefit in us being there so I think spending more money and sending more troops would be a waste - but I dont think i know enough to make that call.....although, talking to the man on the street there seems to be no shortage of experts who, despite their lack of military, strategic, financial, and political, expertise could do a much better job based on what they read wtriteen by the plebs in the Sun and the Mirror.   

You send people in, the good guys and the bad guys have guns, people are getting killed and thats no surprise - although obviously I feel for the families etc you can't get all up in arms (haha) about our boys getting shot over there and go on about their equipment and numbers - as the man in the street we simply do not know what the right decisions to make are. 

Sitting here and going on about troop numbers and equipment and how much we should spend on either is simply something we dont know enough about - its not our job, its complex and complicated, its bloody expensive (and you ALWAYS have to look at return against investment and soldiers are a commodity like tanks and food), and the gung-ho headlines in the gutter press based on hype, and uniformed and misleading information presented as fact, has created this generation we have now that cries out in mortification about every move thats made over there. 

When in fact, on the whole scale of things, we know nothing. 

On top of which you have the televised news (especially on commercial television) thats turned into nothing more than storm-in-a-teacup programming to fill the endless hours of news thats now broadcast to satisfy our thirst for more and more drama (that doesnt reeally affect us much so we can act mortified safely from the sidelines).

Look at the D-day landings - we didnt have the best equipment and it was a clear and obvious fact that we were going to lose many, many good men on those beaches, but we won.  Look at vietnam - the yanks had MUCH better kit than the cong but they didnt win. 

[hermes2007]

That is a very good response Yokel and not sure I can disagree. Its only 20 - 30 years later we ordinary people get to find out the truth. Probably much later given the things that are still emerging about wars like WWII and Vietnam.

One thing that is interesting is this phenomenon of reading out the names of the dead and parading them through Wooton Bassett. Does this reflect a higher value we now put on human life (or rather death) or the fact that modern wars have fewer casualties (at least on our side). During D-Day (since you mention it) we must have been loosing hundreds of men every day and I remember reading that in WWI in the trenches the allies were loosing something like 5000 men a day, in between major battles!

[Yokel]

I think its like gravel. 
You have a piece of gravel on your path.
You see it.
You dont want it there.
You pick it up - it has your attention now - and you deal with it.
Then you pretty much forget about it.
Next day theres a couple of more pieces of gravel on your path.
Its made you really quite annoyed.
So you clear them up and deal with it.
Then you pretty much forget about it.
Next day theres a pile of gravel in the middle of the path about the size of a bucket. 
You rant and rage and you clear it up.
Then you pretty much forget about it.

Next day the path is covered in gravel so you decide not to let it bother you and just walk over it.


(I think i may be mad)

[Soup]

You cant make an omelette without breaking eggs.

Egg substitute? 

[charlie finbow]

you make good points yokel.   However polititions make war regardless of public opionion in my view but they have a resposibility to provide the tools and training to get the job done.   Fighting a war against a uniformed army is more straightforward than fighting terrorists, i hope im wrong but im not so sure you can stop terrorism or the vast amounts of money that go hand in glove.   I think too many desk jockys in whitehall who have no idea, but just my oppionion.

[hermes2007]

My son pointed me at:

http://www.milblogging.com/

to get the military viewpoint via the soldiers own blogs. Fascinating stuff, you definately don't see on the BBC!

[Yokel]

I'm curious myself to know how much of war - especially this one - is about economies and money (both preserving our financial interests, lining the pockets of the military supplies companies - who are probably in bed with the politicians, and simply generating employment).
I'm willing to bet its a miniscule % thats about humanitarian causes - if it were then sierra leone etc would have been solved years ago.

[Mike Hawkins]

Perhaps there is a solution to the manning/funding issues.

Parliament closes for 3 months summer recess. Therefore 600+ MP's are available (remember our own MP has served). Therefore the Government announces that all MPs' (including the PM and cabinet) other than those who have already served, will spend 2 months fighting in Afghanistan under the control of Military Personnel and using the same equipment/vehicles available to the rest of the fighting personnel at this time.

Results:

1. 600+ additional personnel (albeit 500 will probably be totally useless except as cannon fodder,  mine clearance [ you know, those who walk in front and if they get blown up will have at least diffused one mine]);

2. To protect themselves, they will ensure that the latest equipment is available; and

3. The Taliban will probably rid us of a number of useless MPs'.

PS: MP's will not be able to claim travel or other allowances during their period of engagement.

If the number of MP's is insufficient, there are additional Civil Servants from the MOD available.

[lisagill]

My disgust at the goverment is that when one of our men/boys/girls are flown back to wooton bassett, has anyone actually seen one of those stuck up over paid and waste of spaces that come on tv and say they are sorry for our loss line the street and salute the dead soldiers?
No we haven't and nor have the good people that go on to the street all the time and say goodbye for us, it tore my heart to pieces last week when 8 bodies were flown home and the ex mayor of Wooton Bassett was in tears saying that he did not think him could stand seeing that sight of 8 heariss going through the street again.
I would go there and pay my respects anytime as a service wife but i too watched it on tv in floods of tears and answering my 6 year old why those brave soldiers had to die.
So come on GORDON BROWN and hypocrites stand in the street and salute those brave people for keeping the terrorists away from britain, they deserve your respect and are far better people than you ever will be!!!!!!

[charlie finbow]

well said lisagill. I couldnt have put it better myself but we can sleep easy in our beds that the government are welding two chinook helicopters together to give our boys and girls the so called up to date equipment bloody disgrace especially as one of the chinook helicopters was captured from the falkland wars, cut and shut second hand equipment santioned by a cut and shut government.