Do you believe?/Spiritual threads merged

[CeeJay]

CC,

Here here....

Without a faith (whatever that faith is) the purpose for life is not clear.

To believe in something, someone, a god, God, is only natural and I believe is innate.

To believe in nothing leads to an emptiness within that people often try to fill with a multitude of other vices - sad but true.

My choice....God (through is Son Jesus Christ)

CJ

[Twinkling Star]

I watched the documentary  about AUDREY SANTO on tv and just had to find out more...
What do you think ??

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/archive/features/97/12/25/AUDREY_SANTO.html

[Guy Davies]

Mrs Thatcher (in)famously said, “There is no such thing as society”. The Thatcherite 1980’s gave birth to a consumerist society where the wants of the individual are prized above the needs of the community. I would like to reflect on “Thatcherite spirituality”. This is not an attempt to assess the personal spirituality of Baroness Thatcher. What I would like to discuss is the privatisation of religion in terms of “spirituality”. For many people, this has replaced the more community-based approach to the spiritual life that involves belonging to a Church.

People often claim, “I don’t go to Church or anything, but I’m really quite a spiritual person.” What lies behind such a statement is what I call “Thatcherite spirituality”. This is spirituality viewed as a personal quest. The great aim is self-improvement. What matters in the pursuit of spiritual fulfilment is not truth, but whatever makes you feel OK. “If it looks like it works, and feels like it works, then it works!” People take a fragment of Christian morality, mix it with New Age mysticism, light up the joss-sticks and lo and behold, they have got “spirituality”. How cool is that?

Christian spirituality is different from “Thatcherite spirituality. The Christian knows that we were made by and for the true God. Any attempt to find spiritual satisfaction apart from enjoying and glorifying him are bound to end in empty disappointment.

Christian spirituality is about God reaching down to us, revealing himself to us in the Bible and reconciling us to himself through Jesus Christ. We only seek God because he first seeks us and awakens us to seek him with all our hearts. This is God-centred, not “my need centred” spirituality.

Christian spirituality is focussed on Jesus Christ. He is the only mediator between God and human beings. He has entered our world as a human being. Jesus died for our sins on the cross and rose from the dead. He lives as the only true Lord and Saviour of needy human beings. By believing in Jesus, we are put right with God. In him we are given the hope of eternal life. God is revealed to us truly, fully and finally in Jesus Christ. God has shone in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of his glory in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:6).

Christian spirituality leads to involvement in a Christian community. In the New Testament, “Church” does not mean the building in which people meet, but the people themselves. Christians are called to spiritual growth by being involved in Church life. We are called to “love one another”, “forgive one another” and “bear one another’s burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ.” The Church is not a perfect society; it is a community of ordinary, flawed people who have experienced the transforming power of Jesus. By worshipping together, learning together and caring for each other, Christians grow into spiritual maturity. This is different from self-absorbed “Thatcherite spirituality”. There is such a thing a society. God’s society is the Bible believing and practicing Church. The Church in turn, reaches out to the wider society in word and deed with the message of God’s love in Jesus Christ.

So, see you in Church?
http://www.providence-ebenezer.org.uk/

GD

[John GL]

First, I think you're very unfair to Lady Thatcher and what she achieved.  She rescued this country from the mess into which socialism and untrammelled Trades Union power had landed it, revived the economy and started a long rise in prosperity which is still continuing.  We all benefit from that.

Second, the "I'm all right Jack" ethos which you identify with Margaret Thatcher long predates her ministry.  The film of that name, reflecting a view of British life at the time, was made in 1959!  I see Thatcherism as encouraging individual enterprise and self-reliance with a minimum of government control; the alternatives have been tried and they don't work.  Since her fall from power there's been a slow but accelerating move away from her principles which I see with trepidation. 

Third, spirituality. Despite (or perhaps because of) having been a regular church-goer in my youth, I don't feel a need for any sort of organised religion.  I try to "do the decent thing", be honest, avoid lying, not be malicious etc without any sort of priesthood telling me to do so.  In fact I find organised religion faintly repellent - fine if it suits you, but it's not for me.  I don't see myself as a spiritual person at all, nor do I have a need to worship.  If there is indeed an all-powerful Creator, which I regard as an open and unanswerable question, I'm sure he'll understand.

[thatmanfez]

Hi CJ,

You’re probably right to back of the discussion it’s a thorny subject (please excuse the pun) and one that’s probably without a conclusion. Faith can overcome any amount of logic – if you truly believe in something then you won’t ever be swayed from your belief… It did make for an interesting discussion though. Karma for you for putting up with a belligerent atheist!!

To believe in nothing leads to an emptiness within that people often try to fill with a multitude of other vices - sad but true.

This got me thinking… Am I more likely to have vices because I don’t believe in a god? I had a quick bottle of whiskey and a joint before deciding that it isn’t true  – just look at all the atrocities that are being carried out in the name of a god or by devoutly religious people all round the world… Then it occurred to me that I, like they could be very a small minority, not the norm.

Assuming for a moment that Atheists are more prone to vice; It could be a chicken and egg scenario… Are Atheists prone to vice or do bad people choose to be atheists?

Somebody must have studied the correlation between the percentage of atheists in a prison and in normal society and I’m sure it would have interesting results. Personally I don’t think that there would be a significant difference but it would be very hard to set the parameters for what constitutes having faith. I think that a test on the percentage of committed Christians in and out of prison would show large differences but so would a test on the percentages of people who have though about the subject at length and then made an informed decision not to believe in a god.

…But again – I’m wandering off topic…

Not believing in a god doesn’t mean that you don’t believe in anything. As I have said before, not believing in a god means that you must think for yourself and question your own actions, thoughts and desires. This process generates confidence and a strong sense of self. This is a form of belief – A belief in you as well rounded, moral person. I’m no saint and have my vices, but I doubt there is anyone on this forum who doesn’t have vices and hasn’t regretted their actions at some time in their lives (councilors included ). We’re all human and make mistakes. It’s what we do after that shows us (and others) who we really are. That doesn’t require a faith in god, it requires an inner strength. You can't have inner strenth if you are "empty inside".

[Guy Davies]

Hi John GL,

Thanks for your response to my post. Let me first deal with the politics. My reflection on "Thatcherite spirituality" was not an exercise in nostalgia for the halcyon days (not!) of the winter of discontent. I am not a card-carrying Blairite, Lib Dem or whatever. I would admit some good may have came out of Mrs. Thatcher's years in number 10.

What I wanted to address was religious aspect of Mrs. Thatcher's statement that, "there is no such thing as society".

I think my argument still stands that many people in modern Britain see spirituality as a highly individualistic religious quest. This privatized form is religion is very different from Christianity because Christianity involves belonging to the family of God, or the Church. The fact that you find "organised religion" repellent bears out what I was saying.

Yours,

GD

[John GL]

Hi Guy

I don't think the quote has any religious bearing, and it is often misconstrued.  What I believe Mrs Thatcher to have meant is that there is no separate thing called "society" which can look after us: society is made up of a mass of individuals, all of whom must take responsibility to the best extent they can.  It's not a sign of a "devil take the hindmost" philosophy.

Christianity has often been seen as a private religious quest.  Surely the direct communion of the believer with God, without the necessary interposition of a priesthood and/or saints, is one of the distinguishing marks of Protestantism.  Isn't it?  That's why I find Protestantism (I used to attend a Baptist church) more appealing, or at least less repellent, than other forms of Christianity which tend to be much more organised, ritualised and hierarchical.

However, I'll duck out now as (I suspect unlike many others in this Forum) I don't feel a need for "spirituality" at all.

Regards

John

[CeeJay]

Mr Fez,

Am I more likely to have vices because I don’t believe in a god?

Nope - not you Fez...because you clearly believe in something and have a passion for life that precludes emptiness.   

Some people are less fortunate and when they despair, when times are bad, when they have money problems, when they feel lonely, when they feel un-loved, when their marriage breaks up, when they are burgled or violated in any way etc..etc....that is the time when they will be searching inwards for the reasons why. Questioning.

My point is that having a faith (what ever that faith is - even if that is a massive belief in oneself) during those bad times we all go through is more likely to avoid us spiraling into using vices to prop up our lives.

It would be an interesting survey to conduct - take the current prison population and quantify how many professed to engage in a clear belief structure (whatever that was) and compare that with the same sample outside.....interesting....

or maybe not....?   



CJ

[thatmanfez]

Hi Guy,
Speaking as an outsider to the religious part of your post I may be able to offer a fresh point of view.

I agree that Christianity has been much more of an organization than an idea in the past. The current move away from organized religion isn’t necessarily an abandonment of Christianity. It could be that Christians as a social group are changing. Education standards have improved vastly in the last fifty years of so. There has also been a huge increase in the amount of information we as a society have access to (some might say bombarded by ).

Could it be that better educated people, given more options, are simply finding a form of spirituality that is right for them… We as a society evolve through time. This is probably just a manifestation of this evolution. There are still those who prefer the old style religion but I agree the numbers are dropping. Hopefully churches will adapt to incorporate this change in society. If they don’t then they will have to make do with the minority who still want a formal religious experience.

Christian spirituality is focused on Jesus Christ. He is the only mediator between God and human beings.

This statement is true for you, but may not be true of others. It is possible to achieve spiritual growth (emotional growth in my case) in many ways, the clever bit is finding ‘your way’ and going with it.

The Christian knows that we were made by and for the true God. Any attempt to find spiritual satisfaction apart from enjoying and glorifying him are bound to end in empty disappointment.

I suspect that the1.3 billion followers of Allah would disagree with that statement.

To summarize, I think our society is evolving away from the need for formal religion. Many people get enlightenment from a more relaxed form of spiritualism because it suits who they are within the context of the modern word. Just because something isn’t right for you, doesn’t make it wrong (it’s not right for me), and complaining about it won’t make it go away. To use a Christian term, you should turn the other cheek.

Fez

Edited - Typo

[thatmanfez]

Hi CJ,

I agree with almost every thing you just said – Having faith can be a massive help during the hard times. But it’s not the only way to get through it.

Unfortunately I’ve had some very first hand experience of the ‘hard times’ to the point where I didn’t feel able to cope (I’ll pm the details but would prefer not to post them in a public forum). Having lost my self confidence and any passion for life I needed help! I found that help in my friends, family, a doctor and a therapist.

[King Smurf!]

In times of trouble i find my good old friend Jack Daniel's helps me out! 

[CeeJay]

Klee,

I think I've met him...does he have a buddy called Johnnie Walker?     

 

CJ

[thatmanfez]

Ah Jack Daniel’s... he's my kind of spirit ! I used to call him Jack, but now we’ve got so close I just call him JD!!! 

[King Smurf!]

well its either Mr Jd or Dc BUD! depends who is more comforting
!I'm easy!

[Guy Davies]

Hi John  GL,

Thanks again for your response. Yes, direct communion with God through Christ without the mediation of the clergy is a hallmark of Protestantism. But Protestantism is not the same as today's privatised spirituality. That is why there are Protestant Churches.

Yours

GD