Do you believe?/Spiritual threads merged

[CeeJay]

CC,

Apologies...didn't even answer your initial questions!  How rude of me!   

Do you believe you are a spirit inside a body?   Yes - without a doubt.

Do you believe you have a soul or do you think it is all a load of rubbish and that once we are dead life has truly ended?    Yes - every human has a soul.  My belief is that this soul will either end up in an eternity of separation from God or will one day be part of God's ultimate plan. We alone make the choice over which option to take.

Heavy stuff eh!! - I'm sure Andy has chatted to you about this choice though!

Take care.

  

CJ

[thatmanfez]

Beer isn’t my god – the brewers are! Lol

I think that having a faith is a good thing. It provides a crutch to help people through the bad times, it provides an answer as to why bad thing happen (“It was gods will”) and sets out a framework for people to live their lives by.

I do, however, think that our current collection of god figures are reaching the end of their lives. IMO they’ve been overtaken by the advancements mankind has made in the last few hundred years.
This is being reflected in society by a marked increase in people who believe in much more general godlike ideas. A good word to sum up these ideas would be spiritualism (Derek Acora and the like). Maybe we will see a hybrid faith appear in the future – who knows?

Guy made a good point about the wish fulfilment aspects of atheists – discounting a god because the idea is too big to deal with, but maybe atheism is a new form of faith. I believe that my atheism is a faith in the knowledge that we are our own creators and that we must be accountable for our actions in the here and now and not in an afterlife. It isn’t that much of a step from a religion. It just puts the responsibility on the individual and not on a father figure.

It’s interesting that the Heaven and Earth Show (The BBC’s Sunday religious program – that I regularly watch) has made a point of not being affiliated with any specific religion. Instead it talks in broad terms about the benefits of religion (of which there are many), regardless of what you believe. IMO this show is a shining example of what the BBC does best – reflecting public opinion without being judgemental or pigeonholing itself. If you don’t watch it, I would strongly recommend that you do (and that’s coming from an atheist!)

[thatmanfez]

CJ – one word… Evolution

The bible is very clear (bear in mind this is the unequivocal word of your god) that the world was created in six days and that there was first Adam. Eve was created from his rib bone… This has been proven to be false.

We evolved through time from (relatively) complex hydrocarbon strings, through single cell entities and into more complex beings – the beautiful complexity of DNA is all about time and chemistry. The world (our world) was made in an instant and developed over many millions of years.

I don’t want to disrespect your bible because I think it basically says the right things, I just don’t think that there was a god figure guiding the people who wrote it… It was written over a couple of generations, by people who believed in your god and who wanted to make other people believe – they did a good job!

edited - typo

[Guy Davies]

Hi Manfez,

Science helps us to understand the mechanisms and forces that govern the material world such as DNA, gravity etc.  The scientific method is focused upon the physical world that we can observe with our senses. The scientist subjects his or her observations to rational reflection to develop a theory that may help to explain why E=MC2 or whatever. The scientific method cannot adjudicate on the existence of God. He is beyond empirical detection. We cannot subject him to laboratory experiments.

Scientific discoveries have not made the existence of God redundant. How could they? The more we learn about the Universe, the more the believer wonders at the wisdom and power of the Creator.

The atheist has difficulty understanding why the Universe is so well designed that scientific exploration is possible in the first place. If the Universe is the product of the  irrational and impersonal forces of blind chance plus matter, why the appearance of order and design and beauty in nature? Why should human beings be capable of highly technical scientific experimentation and theorisiation if we are basically nothing more than highly developed hunter-gatherers? We seem to be massively over-equipt for the basic tasks of human survival. The Christian answer is that we are made in the image of God. That is why we are rational, moral and creative beings. We were made by and for a loving, wise and all powerful Creator. We can only find lasting satisfaction by knowing and worshipping Him.

May I suggest you read Dawkins' God by Alister McGrath.

McGrath was an atheist who came to believe in God whlie studying molecular biophysics at Oxford University. In his book he deals with Dawkins' claim that Darwinian evolution made made God redundant.

You can see a review on my blog:

http://exiledpreacher.blogspot.com/2006/01/dawkins-god-by-alister-mcgrath_06.html

Yours,

GD

[thatmanfez]

I've just read your blog and agree that Dawkin's God would make a very interesting read – I’m going to have some time on my hands in the next six months so I’ll make a point to buy it before I go.

I do, however, disagree with your comment that the universe was designed (while I accept that we have differing opinions about the source of the universe) IMO the universe isn’t designed, it’s bound by the laws of physics. The order and beauty you (we) enjoy is IMO a result of routine and quantum physics rules playing out in everything we see and can’t see.

I do agree that there is a (IMO very minute) possibility that a ‘god’ chose to create the big bang, but I still believe that the scientific reason is (more or less) correct. Moreover, that it isn’t the god you worship according to your bible. I honestly believe that we were created by physics, chemistry and energy.

That said, I do respect your faith and should point out that what I say here is only to validate my argument and not to disrespect your belief in your god.

Edited - sooling mistook

[CeeJay]

Fez,

Concerning evolution. (that old chesnut!!)

Let's explore the very boundaries and beyond of our own intellect.

Let's multiply that conceptual intellect by 1,000,000,000,000,000

Let's now realise that we are a factor of infinity away from the correct answer.

It is just not possible for the human mind to comprehend the enormity of what "creation" is and what "God" is - that's why we have faith(s) and belief structures (the non-athiests that is!)

If God created the universe in a blink of an eye.

If God created the beginings of life in all it's complexities.

If God has the power to overcome sickness and even to conquor death.

The same God would have no problem in orchestrating evolution to His own plan!

Or, even, for than matter, in creating all of heaven and earth in 6 seconds rather than six days! - just as it currently stands - with computers and everything!!

I'm a scientist through and through - but my knowledge of molecules, physics, energy, mathematics does not distance me from the creator....far from it....I am in awe....every day....at the Majesty of God.

CJ

[Dave]

IMO it does not matter what you believe, if it works for you then where is the problem. There is far too much that cannot be explained to dissmiss it offhand. If whatever people believe makes them happy then so be it. When they try to shove it down my throat and dissing my beliefs, then I get narked.
Anyway, when God ceated this universe, she was having a laugh

[thatmanfez]

...Let's explore the very boundaries and beyond of our own intellect.

Let's multiply that conceptual intellect by 1,000,000,000,000,000

Let's now realise that we are a factor of infinity away from the correct answer.

If God created the universe in a blink of an eye.

If God created the beginings of life in all it's complexities.

If God has the power to overcome sickness and even to conquor death.

The same God would have no problem in orchestrating evolution to His own plan!

Or, even, for than matter, in creating all of heaven and earth in 6 seconds rather than six days! - just as it currently stands - with computers and everything!!...

This is one of my problems with religion… You quoted from the bible in a previous post, chapter and verse, as if it’s the user manual of life – “the word of god”; then, when it suits you, you ignore the ‘word of god’ in favour of a non-descript godlike entity that did lovely things and created fluffy bunnies and stuff but didn’t do it like it says in the bible – the book (your) god wrote. Do you believe in the bible and its god or not???

Edited to add:

Sorry if I’m getting a bit personal – I’ve got the bit between my teeth and just went with it – I think my point is clear though

[H]

Hi all,
I'm a Christian and although I have strong belief, my partner is an Atheist.  I don't try to force my views on him, nor does he force his on me but we do have interesting discussion and I like to think that he keeps me firmly 'grounded'!

I've recently been attending a Westbury Churches Together Lent Course and that has given me some food for thought as far as a Creator God goes.  I hadn't really thought alot about that subject (despite studying Theology at the moment!) and just dismissed Creationismin the Bible as allegory, but we were discussing life, the universe and everyting and what has provoked though in me is the fact that a huge number of details need to be 'just right' in order for life to flourish on earth (the proximity of the moon, the size of Jupiter, the earth's distance from the sun, the fact that water expands as it cools below 4 degC etc etc).  I think science can teach us a huge amount, but there is still so much that we don't know and haven't discovered yet.

I think it's difficult to try and explain things in terms of God because we are so limited by language...we can only refer to God as 'He' or 'She' which immediately paints particular pictures in people's minds.  I think God is much more than we can imagine or have the words to describe...a kind of 'Ground of all Being'.

All that aside, I do however, have a very simple view of my faith...

The God I believe in is a God of Love...
He sent his Son, Jesus as the ultimate act of love...
Jesus tought us that we should love God and love one another above everything else
so I believe that means...
that wherever there is love in the World...God is already there.

(Just my view!) 

[Clevercat]

I absolutely must agree that whatever gets you through life, whatever keeps you strong through all the harder times is a great thing in itself.  What ever your God, whatever your beliefs, they are what make us unique, so different, so determined and focused.  We all have our own opinions about Religion, I think its great to be able to learn from eachother.  There are things that interest me about Christianity and also about Budhism.  I am not as I said a follower of any particular faith.. It worries me that people get so defensive about thier Religion, that they are so quick to dictate how our lives should be lived.
As long as you live your life a good person I think you have won an inner peace which rides high above any religion, in my opinion.
I am always eager to listen to others views. There are things about various Religions which I am wary of and which worry me a little. The teaching that you are bad if you have sinned.  Sin covers obviously the eleven commandments in Christian terms.  Many of those commandments when broken are down to us being human and making wrong decisions or because we see no other way forward at the time.  I do not believe they are sins that need to be forgiven by a God. 
In a nutshell, live and let live, respect eachother and the world becomes a happier place.

[CeeJay]

Mr Fez!,

Many thanks for your lively debate on this massive subject.

Just responding to clarify your quite valid questioning of my thought patterns.

You quoted from the bible in a previous post, chapter and verse, as if it’s the user manual of life – “the word of god”; then, when it suits you, you ignore the ‘word of god’ in favour of a non-descript godlike entity that did lovely things and created fluffy bunnies and stuff but didn’t do it like it says in the bible – the book (your) god wrote

There need's to be a distinction between quoting from the Bible (which I believe has to be both accurate and in context to be valid) and offering interpretation or thought's and feelings on the subject of "God" and one's own understanding and relationship.  My thoughts are that God is capable of anything and everything. He is the beginning and the end. And I am not even worthy to estimate His power , love, or meaning.

My understanding is that everyone should (especially in a forum) be able to offer there own thoughts and feelings on the subject of God.

If I had quoted that my feelings and understandings on the matter were based on Bible scripture then I would expect you and in fact Guy to scold me for mis-quoting.

They are, in fact, my own interpretations of the power and Majesty of God based on that information I have obtained from reading the Bible and other theological research.

Other people may have other interpretations and feelings on reading the same book - and that is great! That's what the massive subject of theology is all about.

Do you believe in the bible and its god or not

Yes - I believe the Bible is the manual for building a relationship with God. It should not be miss quoted or altered in any way. Period.

Edited to add:

Sorry if I’m getting a bit personal – I’ve got the bit between my teeth and just went with it – I think my point is clear though

Fez - I'm not offended and won't take your comments personally. This is a forum. You are entitled to your views and they should be respected. As should everyone elses views!

CJ

[CeeJay]

CC,

Many of those commandments when broken are down to us being human and making wrong decisions or because we see no other way forward at the time.  I do not believe they are sins that need to be forgiven by a God.

My belief, and this is backed up in Bible scripture, is that our sin separates us from God, and we can only have a relationship with God if our sins are forgiven.

My graphic link has the associated Biblical references for this and Guy Davies has also explored this area within this thread.

The issue for many people, however, is whether they believe that the Bible is in fact what it professes to be.  If it is not real for you or anyone reading this thread then no amount of quoting it will have any effect, or meaning until it becomes real.


CJ
http://www.greatcom.org/laws/english/flash/

PS....eleven commandments?  That's another theological argument best not explored here! 

[thatmanfez]

Hi CJ,

This is part of what confuses me about Christians…If the bible is the word of god that:

…should not be miss quoted or altered in any way. Period.

How you do you explain the glaring inaccuracies?

If god wrote the bible, then the stated facts within it should be infallible. This would mean that the earth was created in six days as a fully working ecosystem, complete with animals and two fully formed humans that looked like god. This has been proven to be incorrect… Assuming that god didn’t have a bit of a dry run with the dinosaurs before wiping most of them out (I can’t blame Jesus for not being too keen about spreading the word of god to a T-rex!!! ) it has been shown that Homo Sapiens evolved from Homo Erectus about half a million years ago. This is not a theory, this has been proven.

According to the bible, Noah gathered two of every animal in the world (including all the ones we’re only just discovering) along with enough food/water to sustain them all (including the carnivores) for either 40 or 150 days (depending which bit of the bible you happen to believe). He then fitted them all into a boat that was only four meters longer than the frigate I currently serve on. My ship is a squeeze with only 180 personnel onboard – I’m fairly sure we wouldn’t even fit the animals from Bristol zoo onboard with us, let alone feed them all!

Assuming that god helped out and shrunk all the animals and supplies in order to fit them in and feed them, it still doesn’t explain why we see genetic diversity in all living things. If there were ever only one breading pair of a species, there would only be two sets of genetic code with which to repopulate its genus. Notwithstanding the genetic abnormalities this would cause, it would be easily identifiable.

While I’m on Noah… He must have had a very diverse family as it obviously contained at least two members from every race of humans on the planet . Oh, and what about all the trees and plants? Did he lash a couple of redwoods on deck?

…My point - IMO the bible was written about a god, not by a god. It should be read as a book detailing a small but devout groups belief in their god. It should be read knowing about all the in accuracies, hype and ‘spin’ that are associated with every dogma in the world today. That said, there is still nothing wrong with choosing to believe in the god they were talking about. I just suggest that you take the literal accuracy of the bible with a pinch of salt…

[CeeJay]

Mr Fez,

Thank you for your continued lively debate around evolution.

I'm not, however, going to be drawn on providing my own feelings on this subject as they are beyond the scope of the original question, and I do not feel qualified enough to offer advice to anyone else pondering this particular dilema that faces many Christians of today. Maybe GD will be braver!! 

Links to provide a starting point for peoples research into this massive subject are provided here.

http://www.cryingvoice.com/Evolution/CreationvsEvol.html

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v6/i2/creation.asp

http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c013.html

Happy hunting.

CJ

[Clevercat]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4902332.stm

Above is a link relating to the power of believing... the power of the mind to command your physical being.

Some people believe in a God, some believe in the power of the Universe, in Crystal healing etc etc,  I think if your beliefs are strong enough you will be in contol of your destiny so to speak.  How you think, and how you handle experiences governs how you will live your life.   Buying into any positive thought pattern be it believing in the power of God or any other means, will guide you into leading a enriched more positive way of life, so thank goodness for the power of beliefs!